This slightly out of focus front view of the Scaup shows how broad its bill is.
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This is the blog for bird sightings and related news in the Calderdale area. It is generally updated daily. Any non-member wishing to report and post sightings should send them to info(at)calderdalebirds(dot)co(dot)uk
2021 /22 HBWC report
Copies are available at £6.00 each from the GO local store at Woodlesford, Pellon price . Hopefully they will also be available at the Fox and Goose Hebden Bridge ,
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15 comments:
Hi Peter.
This bird is still a Tufted Duck. Irrespective of the bill, the head shape is completely wrong for Scaup.
Daniel
Can nobody get a better photo!
It's this bird Mick https://calderbirds.blogspot.com/2024/09/cold-edge_99.html
Hi Daniel. I'm not sure about your phrase "irrespective of the bill" when the bill is a rigid structure. The head profile depends on feathers, which can be blown upwards by strong wind, (cf: the waves in my 9 September photos). You have dismissed both my Scaups as Tufted Ducks, but you haven't refuted my reasons for saying they are Scaups: you haven't given us your detailed thinking.
(The above refers to comments after my posts on 28 August and 9 September)
Hi Peter.
When identifying this species pair, the structure of the head is the most important feature (unless dealing with obvious birds). The bill is different between the species as you say, but when the head shape is correct for either species then the bill is less important, as are other features.
You can see in both your birds, as I said before, the angles on the head, especially at the back, contradicts your identification of Scaup, which should have a rounded head. Head profile can be influenced by wind conditions, but not the extent that would be required to turn your birds into Scaups, and you’ve helpfully photographed them at different angles and the profile remains the same, so it’s quite easy to dismiss weather here.
As I said, I did confer with another more experienced birder, the chair of the London rarities committee, and they agreed that it was a Tufted Duck.
Hope that helps. Mick or anyone else might have different opinions but that is how I see it.
Hi both. Hope you're both well. I did see the earlier photos when posted. My take was, and still is really, all the photos are too poor to change either of the opposing opinions. I'd not be confident there was no photo effect that might support or disprove either of the opposing views. On the other hand, I think non adult tufted/scaup ID is one of hardest separations in the pennines. I can't tell you the number of times I've puzzled over such an ID. including on close birds showing bill pattern. And been undecided. Yet, here in oxon, it's not been a struggle. Scaups have been obvious. A bit like sprwk v gos. If I'm unsure it'll not be a gos. Unless of course, I'm misidentifying some gos as sprwk. And some scaup as tufted! Someone needs to get better pics. And note diving action. Btw Pete. I did comment on NWD Gull!
Cheers Mick.
Interesting stuff, the only Pennine Scaup I have had the pleasure of seeing was indeed an adult drake down at EGP some years ago.
It is interesting, I had a similar issue last year with a bird at Gorple, which I tried desperately to turn into a Lesser Scaup for pro-Scaup features on a Tufted-shaped head, with the added feature of a half wing bar. However, I put the bird on Twitter and was overwhelmingly told the bird was a Tufted Duck, despite the pro-Scaup features, and that experience and what I took from that has dictated how I’ve tried to ID Athyas.
Like you say, often Scaups are not a struggle to pick out, with very obvious rounded heads, hence my push that these birds are both Tufteds. However, my Pennine experience with Scaups is limited and if better photos emerge I am obviously happy to stand corrected.
Thank you Mick: ever the diplomat! I hope you are well. I was glad to see your thoughts on Nick's gull, and agreed with what you said.
And thanks Daniel. I still think you are wrong, and that both birds are Scaups.
The first photo in particular of the August bird shows the typical Scaup head shape with steep forehead and rounded rear crown: the slight ruffling of the nape feathers by the force 4 wind does not amount to an angle. And the clincher is the bird's grey body.
The September bird has a classic massive Scaup bill. This could only be disregarded if the rear crown had a definite tuft or 'bump', not just nape feathers most likely lifted by the wind (on the 9th). While the photo on the 14th, out of the wind, shows a rounded rear crown with no hint of a tuft.
Further to Mick's comment, the birds 'slid' underwater: they did not leap.
Hi all , hope you are well , I have to agree with Mick , I have also spent many hours pondering if its a Scaup or Tufty, in the Pennines ,,but I must admit that I would have to get a better pic of this one or get as close as possible , the bill looks broad and Scaup like on a zoomed in photo but this is never a good way to id a Scaup , the head looks a bit rounded and at a strange angle , there are often Tufted Duck on this bit of water , I would need a better photos to be sure, .....the only other thing I would say,, is that all mine end up being Tufted Duck .....
There was one in 2021at Dean Head identified as a Tufted but on seeing that one I immediately id'd it as Scaup......I will try and get up and see if its still there ,,cheers all
Scaup has become a scarce bird in Calderdale and great care should be taken...
And Nicks Gull....its not a Yellow Legged Herring Gull (is there such a thing)....its impossible to tell with those phots...
Thanks very much Andy for taking time to comment on this Scaup/Tufted question, and on 'Nick's gull'. My photos are small: I note your caution about zoomed photos: but I still think that on a laptop screen we can see enough to make definite IDs. I like to do my own thinking and to stick to what I see and know (being a stubborn b......), even if this means disagreeing with people who have a lot more knowledge and experience than I have. So, even though I'm outnumbered, I'm still saying that these are two Scaups. For the following reasons:-
1. Behaviour: how and for how long they dive;
2. The steep forehead that angles to the crown;
3. The lack of a tuft or definite 'bump' at the rear crown;
4. The black on the bill being confined to the nail;
5. The grey body of the August bird;
6. The size and shape of the bill, seen best on the September bird: my photographic bird books show that this is spot on for Scaup, but too big for Tufted;
7. (not diagnostic) The small white patches at the sides of the bill on the September bird.
That's it. I'm really grateful to you, Daniel and Mick for saying what you/they think. All the best, Pete
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